This section of the novel feels like such a train wreck (plot-wise, certainly not Austen's writing). It genuinely feels like almost nothing more could have gone wrong at the Netherfield ball, with Lizzy's family constantly embarrassing her and staying way past their welcome. The only good thing is Jane and Bingley spending so much time together and being so absorbed in conversation that they hardly pay attention to anything else.
And then almost immediately Mr. Collins proposes to Lizzy and "we are all in uproar!" I think it's very telling that Lizzy clearly states that she knows he could not make her happy and that she's the last woman on earth who could make him so, and instead of acknowledging the terrible match for what it is, Collins blames *her* and says he actually doesn't want her anyway because *she's* clearly the problem. Mr. Bennet's line about having to choose between her parents because "I will never see you again if you do [say yes to Collins]" is one of my favourite moments in the whole novel.
And Charlotte! I think it's a little strange that Lizzy really couldn't see that her friend was much more pragmatic and would easily marry for security over love, since she speaks her mind so openly. It makes me sad that she feels she can no longer confide in Charlotte, but I think it illustrates just how close Lizzy and Jane really are, because even her closest friend could deeply disappoint her, but not Jane (and don't we all feel that way about Jane? She is so good).
There's so much rising tension in relation to Bingley. Lizzy can't believe that he doesn't care for Jane, but even she's starting to wonder if the pressure of his family and friends might be enough to persuade him to stay away. And of course Mrs. Bennet can't seem to see how upset she's making poor Jane by constantly bringing it up and talking about her own feelings.
It really struck me again how Mr. Collins continues to rub me the wrong way because he keeps lucking into things (his job, house, inheritance, and now the marriage to Charlotte) and while he goes on at length about how grateful he is for being able to stay with the Bennets, he also is very happy to take advantage again immediately afterward in order to "make love" to his new fiance (while insulting the Bennets because he didn't really want to see them anyway). His "humility" is so false, it's infuriating.
It does feel like wreckage, doesn't it? I was soooo struck by Mrs. Bennet's rising anxiety -- nothing can stop her from running her mouth and making a complete mess of the circumstances. She's so anxious, she can't behave in a way that will solidify the future she's hoping for, especially for Jane who she likes so much more than Lizzy lol.
I like what you said about how Mr. Collins seems to just have all of this safety and security handed to him while the Bennet girls are sitting there like...you'll get all of this at our literal expense, dude. He's such a phony!!
And now I'm wondering if that is part of why Lizzy is so shocked at Charlotte's choice to marry him and why her trust flags in her friend. It's not just that Charlotte would marry someone like Collins. Perhaps it's also a bit frightening to Lizzy that Charlotte would marry the guy who stands to inherit the Bennet family's estate...
No surely not. I think it may be another example of Lizzy's prejudice that is her lesson to overcome in not understanding the needs and wishes of others.
'She is a very headstrong foolish girl, and does not know her own interest; but I will *make* her know it.' Haha. I can't tell you how much I am enjoying rereading P&P Haley. Such vivid characters. Mr Collins is a real humdinger, Wickham a smooth operator (somehow his name is perfect). Sir William has the sort of good breeding and complaisance that can carry him through direct rudeness and insult. And I cringed and cringed at Mrs Bennet speaking loudly at the ball about Jane and Bingley marrying - indulging in 'self-gratulation' despite Lizzy's pleas. Later on, when Mrs Bennet finds out about Mr Collins proposal to Charlotte Lucas, her feelings find a rapid vent... haha. There are so many lovely details and moments of humour.
lol I am so happy to read this Tash!! That moment when Mrs. Bennet is like "MR BENNET YOU MUST COME MAKE LIZZY MARRY MR COLLINS" I had to close my book from laughing and also wanting to beat Mrs. Bennet over the head. She's so infuriating that she makes me wonder how any of these girls have an ounce of self-awareness!
I totally agree that Wickham's name is perfect. I was thinking that "Collins" is weirdly perfect, too. It's so unassuming, but then when he's a total idiot, "Collins" suddenly has a sniveling quality to it.
It's a great moment, made all the funnier by Mr Bennet's perfect, wry equanimity!
I think Austen has quite a talent for naming her characters. (Lady Catherine de Bourgh - absolute chef's kiss!) It struck me that the name 'Wickham' is close in style and 'vibe' to 'Willhoughby.' And 'Bingley' just rings all over with Mr Bingley's good nature and cheer. It's impressive that Austen succeeded in making his sister so unlikable!
We know a family who named their labradoodle “Mr. Bingley.” So whenever Bingley is part of the storyline I see his character as a big, dumb, friendly canine.
Now, I am actually curious regarding the title. I need to review but I do think we are seeing "pride" and "prejudice". The ball...the way Wickham speaks about how awful Darcy is. I think there are a lot of prideful moments...the prejudice part is a bit tougher. Is Wickham too often judging who he speaks with? Also, why are we so little in Darcy's head? Will that continue?
Yes! Nice! We're seeing pride and prejudice come up again and again. For prejudice: consider the way Darcy has become the "bad" guy. They're all quite prejudiced against him now. Who else is a victim of judgement? (Perhaps even the loathsome Collins...?)
I wrote lots of notes on these chapters where the action sure has picked up. Like the season ending episode of a TV series, we're left with a series of cliffhangers. The story I'm fixated on though is whatever is going on between Darcy and Wickham. Elizabeth has been very dismissive of Darcy, but seems completely taken in by Wickham. It's said of Jane that "it was not in her nature to question the veracity of a young man of such amiable appearance as Wickham". But that seems to be true for Elizabeth too. I reread the scenes from last week where the girls first interact with Wickham. They seem unaware of the idea of a wolf in sheep's clothing, because their good opinion of Wickham seems primarily based on his appearance. "Far beyond [all others]... in person, countenance, air, and walk". I on the other hand wonder why Wickham immediately starts quizzing Elizabeth about Darcy: how far it was to Netherfield; how long he had been there; what the local people thought of him. Then he plunges into his sad tale of how Darcy has mistreated him, which seems an odd over-sharing to someone just met. On rereading I also noted that Wickham never intended to be a soldier; "the church ought to have been my profession", and that when "the living became vacant two years ago...it was given to another man". Hmmm could that other man be who I'm thinking it is?
At this point in the story I'm worried about Elizabeth. In some ways she seems naive and inexperienced, and yet also brash and reckless. Surely we don't want her to accept Collins as a husband, but she has taken a huge risk by rejecting financial stability. She is shocked that her friend Charlotte would sacrifice her better feelings to worldly advantage, but in the few conversations we've witnessed between the two friends, Charlotte has always shown a pragmatic rather than a romantic bent.
Also, what am I to think of Mr. Bennet? He supports Elizabeth's decision with a comment that I want to cheer for her sake, but at the same time it is so cruel to her mother: "Your mother will never see you again if you do not marry Mr. Collins, and I will never see you again if you do." I did not expect to have such sympathy for Mrs. Bennet, but it sure seems like she gets no support from anyone.
YES YES YES! Keep noticing appearances!!! It was all over my notes this week. I keep wondering about how "pride" and "prejudice" are both rooted in visibility and appearances, too.
I'm also loving your reading of Mr. and Mrs. Bennet. What *are* you to think of him? I'd love to know!
Ok, all the hullabaloo about how “proud” Darcy is? He’s basically a socially awkward introvert.
And then everyone is fawning over Mr. Collins, who can’t imagine Lizzie saying no to his proposal? He’s all like “this is all just part of the charade of you saying yes to me,” but he’s not seen as too proud. Whereas Darcy’s makes one socially awkward quip about Lizzie but is mostly just nose-in-a-book and he’s so proud that people are offended.
Most of the men in the book don’t really know how to express themselves. Mr. Bennet is usually reading in the library, Darcy is nose-in-a-book, Wickham seems like maybe he had something to gain by his story. Mr. Collins was an _oversharer_. The women seem more in touch with themselves and have the ability to express their thoughts and feelings, but the men barely do. Except for Bingley—he’s quite expressive. Is he… maybe… not straight? He seems so different from the other men in the novel.
So much has happened in these chapters, but it's Lizzie who has left me perplexed. Collins is too much of a pompous self-aggrandizing fool, I get that, but how can she totally trust what Wickham overshares about Darcy, only on their second meeting?
A good looking and charming man is to be trusted, even when they are barely acquiainted. Lizzie is disappointed that Wickham is not present at the ball, because "she had dressed with more than usual care and prepared in the highest spirits for the conquest of all that remained unsubdued of his heart". Girl, where are you getting all these vibes off of, cos I don't see Wickham saying anything about his heart or feelings at all. Why is she, an apparently sensible girl, crushing so much over this guy she just met?
Doesn't it make her suspicious that Wickham, a wronged man skips a public meeting with someone who has seemingly wronged him? Jane, Charlotte and even Caroline try to warn her about Wickham but she's adamant.
To my mind this is Lizzie's prejudice against Darcy playing out, driven by the fact that he hurt her pride in the second chapter itself by refusing to dance with her, calling her "tolerable".
I get Mrs Bennet, she's anxious to get her daughters married off. Mr Bennet helps to ease the situation in the library but also can he not keep snubbing his wife so often.
My favourite part is when Lizzie and Darcy part after they have danced at the ball. And that's where my favourite quote is from:
"...for in Darcy's breast there was a tolerable powerful feeling towards her, which soon procured her pardon, and directed all his anger against another." Feelings!
Did Austen choose to carefully put the word "tolerable" next to "powerful" when the two seem contradictory?
I can't help but notice the repetition of the word tolerable. Is Austen making a joke? When Darcy first encounters Lizzy, he finds her tolerable and this time he has a tolerable powerful feeling towards her. Gradations of toleration!
I am dying at your comment: " Girl, where are you getting all these vibes off of, cos I don't see Wickham saying anything about his heart or feelings at all. Why is she, an apparently sensible girl, crushing so much over this guy she just met?"
lol. right?! I love that Lizzy is *so convinced* that she knows the objective reality of Wickham's feelings when her own are so obviously clouded...
I would love to see you closely read the sentence that juxtaposed "tolerable" with "powerful." Push on that question! It's a GREAT ONE.
I've read this novel dozens of time (I will really try not to type any spoilers) and I have to admit that this part (especially as a teenager) is the bit I would skim read - dreading the cringe of Mrs Bennet and Mr Collins etc. So it's really nice to read it slowly and pay attention. It's fascinating how Lizzy doesn't even hesitate for a moment over refusing Mr Collins (not surprising in the context of the story, but surprising for the period perhaps) - he's shockingly blunt about how likely she is to get another offer! I find it fascinating that she knows she can rely on her father's support - I would guess that wouldn't have been the case for a lot of other young women in the same situation. I also had forgotten how blatant Charlotte's catching Mr Collins was - and really interesting to get her perspective. To be frank I completely sympathise with her - I don't think the lives of impoverished spinsters had much to recommend it - whereas even being married to a stupid (but importantly not unkind as far as we can tell) man gave you a household to manage and a degree of respect. I am so glad times have changed! Like others I'm always surprised how Lizzy is so trusting of Wickham but I guess it's partly because she is already prejudiced against Darcy for calling her tolerable! I wonder if she would have been so believing if it was Bingley he was complaining about? (in the unlikely event it was Caroline she would definitely believe him!). I think the lines in Chap 18 are quite telling 'That would be the greatest misfortune of all! To find a man agreeable whom one is determined to hate!' But my favourite line is regarding Mr Collins's second proposal 'In as short a time as Mr Collins's long speeches would allow...' which made me laugh out loud!
So much to love about this week - much to digest and I am loving the reflections written here.
I always admired that Mr Collins had the right intentions in trying to assist the family but it would be hard to overcome living with him that is for sure.
At the same time I agree with others who have written that they respect that Charlotte was coming from a different place - both in personality and aspirations. Lizzy thought it would be impossible for her to find happiness when all Charlotte was really looking for was a comfortable home.
In terms of Lizzy refusing the proposal, I was struck and cannot help but feel this may be reflective of the time some ten years earlier when Jane was proposed to, accepted, then after sleeping on it changed her mind. Did she channel her own bravery into Lizzy's nonacceptance? Lizzy was most certainly willing to make impossible choices to advocate her own happiness as you wrote Hayley. She, indeed, was not content to fall in with the 'universal' and stood strong in a time and society when this was not the done thing. To use a quote from Star Wars, there may have been 'a great disturbance in the force' the day Lizzy refused.
**My favorite line in this post: “Mr. Bennet wants to be left alone to his library, dammit.” (lol)**
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In regard to the novel:
My book is not separated into Volumes, but I like how Maryann compared this “ending” to a season cliffhanger. Everything that seemed to be leading up to the classic happy ending (a wedding scene) was totally upended.
I didn’t care for Mr. Collins, but I was still kind of happy when he was “successful” with Charlotte. Those two seemed to be all business and I think it worked out for them.
Mrs. B’s pride was so prickled by Charlotte’s catch — and Lady Lucas coming over to rub it in her face (having a daughter *well settled* and all)!! Mrs. B was getting a full serving of crow pie there.
I got the feeling Charlotte also had a moment of pride at Lizzy’s disbelief when she asked her something like, “Is it so hard to believe that I would engage myself to someone you deemed unworthy of interest?”
Lol I sometimes relate to Mr. Bennet WAY TOO MUCH.
There are so many cliffhangers, aren't there?! (And note: I've added continuous chapter numbers to our schedule and I'll be using them in each weekly guide, too, so you don't have to do your own math on the chapter numbers. I hope that helps!)
I like your reading of Charlotte's unexpected moment of pride. I had never noticed that before!
These chapters were packed with so much, and then ended with the surprising first 2 marriage proposals, within days of each other, by the same man to different girls. Interesting that the resulting match is two people who see marriage as more of an arrangement for duty and comfort, than love. In the “business of life” only Charlotte and Mr. Collins have “succeeded” thus far. (Poor Mrs. Bennet, who has been working so hard with no success!)
In earlier chapters, Elizabeth never quite believed Charlotte's stated views on marriage (happiness in marriage” is entirely a matter of chance,” and “it is better to know as little as possible of the defects of the person”) and Lizzie even told her “that you would never act in this way yourself.” But Charlotte would! And, she did!
Charlotte surprised me. It turns out that she wasn’t just going to let life happen to her, but she did a little “scheming” to turn Mr. Collin’s addresses towards herself. And it wasn’t just after his proposal to Lizzie. At the ball, Charlotte had “good-naturedly engaged Mr. Collins” away from Lizzie many times, when he persisted in giving Lizzie too much attention on that train-wreck of a night.
I don’t think Charlotte is going into this marriage blindly. She is older, and so she has had more time to worry about what might actually happen to her. But I’m starting to think that she is a lot more in control of this situation than it seems. And even though I would never want to be in her situation to have to marry a Mr. Collins, or do what she did to Lizzie’s family, I can see why she did what she did when she realized that she could maneuver Mr. Collins. I think she will learn how to keep maneuvering him so that he will feel like he is in charge, but it will actually be her!
I quite like how the first sentence is echoed or better added dimension in chapter 22 when Charlotte reflects:"Without thinking highly either of men or of matrimony, marriage had always been her object; it was the only honourable provision for well-educated women of small fortune, and however uncertain of giving happiness, must be their pleasantest preservative from want."
Hayley - this is such fun! Thank you for guidance through the story. I’m enjoying all the thoughtful comments and discussions.
I apologize if this point has already been made and I missed it. If Mrs. Bennett would have honestly admitted (to herself) that Lizzy and Collins were not a good match from the get go or even listened to her when she said she didn’t want to marry him, perhaps things would have been different. If she had used the time to encourage and nurture a relationship with one of the other sisters as opposed to badgering Lizzy and insisting that they marry Charlotte may not have had her opportunity. Or, perhaps the sisters must be married off in the order of birth?
My favorite quote this week involved Mr. Bennet trying to console Mrs. Bennet about her losing Longbourn to Charlotte when he passes. “My dear, do not give way to such gloomy thoughts. Let us hope for better things. Let us flatter ourselves that I may be the survivor.” In other words - “Honey, if you die first, you will have nothing to worry about.” Mr. Bennet rocks! I look forward to seeing the version of “P&P” with Donald Sutherland playing Mr. B, I bet he’s awesome in the role.
That’s a good observation—I just assumed that Mrs. Bennet was operating from the assumption that the man gets to pick his wife—and women or even the families of women—have to accept the offer that is given. She doesn’t think women have agency at all.
I have a question for you, based on what some other readers have noted about self-awareness: do you believe Mrs. Bennet can actually be honest with herself about her daughters' true, unique selves? I agree that things could've been different if Mrs. Bennet reacted differently: but so far in the novel, I wonder if we hav any reason to believe that Mrs. Bennet is capable of self-awareness on the level it'd take for her to actually alter her impressively impulsive reactions to her daughters' choices (especially Lizzy's!)
And to answer your question: the girls do not have to be married in order, but as we learn in week 5 (out now!), Lady Catherine is shocked to hear that all 5 sisters are "out" in society at once. It was customary for the eldest daughters to be settled before the younger ones would be allowed to go to balls to meet men.
I don’t think Mrs. Bennett can be honest with herself about who her daughters truly are. I think she’s a woman with good intentions, but maybe lacking some common sense and practicality.
This does lead me to wonder if her relationship would have changed with Lizzie, had she married Collins and “saved the family home”. Would she no longer be her least favored daughter?
I’ve noticed a trend in Austen’s “reaction paragraphs” that Jane and Elizabeth are usually always, separately mentioned; Kitty and Lydia are usually grouped together doing something silly; and Mary, if she is mentioned, is sort of tacked on.
It’s shown that Jane is Mrs. B’s favorite and Elizabeth is Mr. B’s — then comes Mary who is neither beautiful nor smart. It feels like she tries extra hard to be musically attractive and intellectually clever in order to bring attention to herself. She even agreed to marry Mr. Collins if he should come to her next.
I’m really hoping to see her by the end of the novel find something she actually enjoys for herself, especially if it’s something simple and wholesome, and she learn to accept herself and not try so hard.
Also, even though we’ve been told by Mr. Bennet that he prefers Lizzy because she “has something more a quickness” than the other girls, all I’ve seen is her act more boyish than the others: running through the rain and mud, speaking her mind about people’s character to their face, and turning down marriage security for “better feelings” (even though it makes sense to us modern women).
Kristin - I like your observation of Lizzy being “boyish”. It leads me to think she must have been the “son” Mr. Bennet never had. I would guess this may be a family dynamic sometimes in family’s with multiple daughters and no sons.
I have two favourite quotes from this week, again highlighting juxtaposition:
"Your mother will never see you again if you do not marry Mr. Collins, and I will never see you again if you do."
"The more I see of the world, the more am I dissatisfied with it; and every day confirms my belief of the inconsistency of all human characters, and of the little dependence that can be placed on the appearance of either merit or sense."
I’ll get to the prompts and the details later, but I have to put this up here……what this section of the book seems to be about is self awareness. The complete lack of self awareness on the part of characters like Mr. Collins and Mrs. Bennet cause the reader to curl up in a shrimplike posture, cringing on their behalf. That is contrasted with the self awareness of Elizabeth’s and of her friend Charlotte Lucas who is perfectly aware of who she is, what her limitations are in the musical chairs marriage market painted by Austen, and so marries Mr. Collins and gets on with it.
The characters that are self aware vs. the characters that are oblivious..that will drive the story……
To be honest, I struggled to engage with the story until this section of the book and then it was like a hound scenting a fox and we are OFF!!!! I could not put it down and even as I puzzled over some of the sentences and the word usage—I had to go back and read and sometimes write down a sentence using other words…..she does love her double negatives….the story really started to move.
Edited to add—
Jane Austen’s description of the social environment is jarring to our modern sensibilities. It’s a market economy—except the buyers and sellers are coming together to form family alliances. The closest analogy in our world might be the real estate market. I talked about self awareness above—there is a market dimension to that awareness—-some characters know their value on the marriage market, and some are wildly unrealistic.
This was my favorite sentence since it sums up Mrs. Bennet’s stupidity, venality, and obliviousness:
“Elizabeth was the least dear to her of all her children; and though the man and the match were quite good enough for her, the worth of each was eclipsed by Mr. Bingley and Netherfield.” The word “dear” is operating on two levels here-the emotional tie being what we would see, but “dear” used to be a term for costly or expensive—so Austen could be saying that Mrs. Bennet viewed Elizabeth as the least marketable of her daughters.
It’s obvious to the reader that she’s counting her chickens…Jane will not be marrying Bingley, but she thinks that Jane has it in the bag. Austen likes to set up parallels. I compared Elizabeth and Charlotte above—both are self aware and know what their choices are, and are determined to live their lives within the bounds of the society they inhabit. They have a realistic view of what they can achieve in the “market” of marriage. Collins and Mrs. Bennet are parallel characters—from opposite sides of the transaction—Collins as a buyer, Bennet as a seller in the marriage market. Both are oblivious to their “fair market value.”
I am finding the word usages really fascinating. Word usage evolves over time, and so what the author meant when choosing a particular word or phrase and what I, the modern reader, understands may be different. I have to slow down and think about some of the ideas because they can be unclear at first—the example I gave of the meaning of “dear” is just one instance. I find myself asking “why did she use this word, as opposed to another word?” What did she mean? Do I think it means what she thought this meant?” It’s adding to my enjoyment of the novel since it is like solving a puzzle. There will be sections that are muddy or confusing at first and the I’ll decode it and it’s like “AH HAH!!”
And some things just never change. No means NO Mr. Collins! Ouch that whole proposal scene was cringe—-it was like reading a story about date rape.
This is a gorgeous reading of where we're at in the novel right now. I love this lens of self-awareness and reading characters through their ability to be aware of others. Another reader has noted that Lizzy's great challenge is becoming aware of others' needs and understanding they are going to be different from her own (for example: Charlotte actually marrying Collins).
I am so glad that this was the week that your fox nose caught the scent and that you're hot on the trail of such a gorgeous close reading now. Thanks for being here and engaging so deeply with the story!!
This section of the novel feels like such a train wreck (plot-wise, certainly not Austen's writing). It genuinely feels like almost nothing more could have gone wrong at the Netherfield ball, with Lizzy's family constantly embarrassing her and staying way past their welcome. The only good thing is Jane and Bingley spending so much time together and being so absorbed in conversation that they hardly pay attention to anything else.
And then almost immediately Mr. Collins proposes to Lizzy and "we are all in uproar!" I think it's very telling that Lizzy clearly states that she knows he could not make her happy and that she's the last woman on earth who could make him so, and instead of acknowledging the terrible match for what it is, Collins blames *her* and says he actually doesn't want her anyway because *she's* clearly the problem. Mr. Bennet's line about having to choose between her parents because "I will never see you again if you do [say yes to Collins]" is one of my favourite moments in the whole novel.
And Charlotte! I think it's a little strange that Lizzy really couldn't see that her friend was much more pragmatic and would easily marry for security over love, since she speaks her mind so openly. It makes me sad that she feels she can no longer confide in Charlotte, but I think it illustrates just how close Lizzy and Jane really are, because even her closest friend could deeply disappoint her, but not Jane (and don't we all feel that way about Jane? She is so good).
There's so much rising tension in relation to Bingley. Lizzy can't believe that he doesn't care for Jane, but even she's starting to wonder if the pressure of his family and friends might be enough to persuade him to stay away. And of course Mrs. Bennet can't seem to see how upset she's making poor Jane by constantly bringing it up and talking about her own feelings.
It really struck me again how Mr. Collins continues to rub me the wrong way because he keeps lucking into things (his job, house, inheritance, and now the marriage to Charlotte) and while he goes on at length about how grateful he is for being able to stay with the Bennets, he also is very happy to take advantage again immediately afterward in order to "make love" to his new fiance (while insulting the Bennets because he didn't really want to see them anyway). His "humility" is so false, it's infuriating.
It does feel like wreckage, doesn't it? I was soooo struck by Mrs. Bennet's rising anxiety -- nothing can stop her from running her mouth and making a complete mess of the circumstances. She's so anxious, she can't behave in a way that will solidify the future she's hoping for, especially for Jane who she likes so much more than Lizzy lol.
I like what you said about how Mr. Collins seems to just have all of this safety and security handed to him while the Bennet girls are sitting there like...you'll get all of this at our literal expense, dude. He's such a phony!!
And now I'm wondering if that is part of why Lizzy is so shocked at Charlotte's choice to marry him and why her trust flags in her friend. It's not just that Charlotte would marry someone like Collins. Perhaps it's also a bit frightening to Lizzy that Charlotte would marry the guy who stands to inherit the Bennet family's estate...
Ooh, yes, I don't know why I hadn't even thought of that, but it makes so much more sense through that lens.
No surely not. I think it may be another example of Lizzy's prejudice that is her lesson to overcome in not understanding the needs and wishes of others.
'She is a very headstrong foolish girl, and does not know her own interest; but I will *make* her know it.' Haha. I can't tell you how much I am enjoying rereading P&P Haley. Such vivid characters. Mr Collins is a real humdinger, Wickham a smooth operator (somehow his name is perfect). Sir William has the sort of good breeding and complaisance that can carry him through direct rudeness and insult. And I cringed and cringed at Mrs Bennet speaking loudly at the ball about Jane and Bingley marrying - indulging in 'self-gratulation' despite Lizzy's pleas. Later on, when Mrs Bennet finds out about Mr Collins proposal to Charlotte Lucas, her feelings find a rapid vent... haha. There are so many lovely details and moments of humour.
lol I am so happy to read this Tash!! That moment when Mrs. Bennet is like "MR BENNET YOU MUST COME MAKE LIZZY MARRY MR COLLINS" I had to close my book from laughing and also wanting to beat Mrs. Bennet over the head. She's so infuriating that she makes me wonder how any of these girls have an ounce of self-awareness!
I totally agree that Wickham's name is perfect. I was thinking that "Collins" is weirdly perfect, too. It's so unassuming, but then when he's a total idiot, "Collins" suddenly has a sniveling quality to it.
It's a great moment, made all the funnier by Mr Bennet's perfect, wry equanimity!
I think Austen has quite a talent for naming her characters. (Lady Catherine de Bourgh - absolute chef's kiss!) It struck me that the name 'Wickham' is close in style and 'vibe' to 'Willhoughby.' And 'Bingley' just rings all over with Mr Bingley's good nature and cheer. It's impressive that Austen succeeded in making his sister so unlikable!
We know a family who named their labradoodle “Mr. Bingley.” So whenever Bingley is part of the storyline I see his character as a big, dumb, friendly canine.
Bingley has MAJOR golden retriever energy!
Now, I am actually curious regarding the title. I need to review but I do think we are seeing "pride" and "prejudice". The ball...the way Wickham speaks about how awful Darcy is. I think there are a lot of prideful moments...the prejudice part is a bit tougher. Is Wickham too often judging who he speaks with? Also, why are we so little in Darcy's head? Will that continue?
It fascinating isn't it! I think 'pride' and 'prejudice' are interchangeable and fluid amongst all the characters at times.
Yes! Nice! We're seeing pride and prejudice come up again and again. For prejudice: consider the way Darcy has become the "bad" guy. They're all quite prejudiced against him now. Who else is a victim of judgement? (Perhaps even the loathsome Collins...?)
I wrote lots of notes on these chapters where the action sure has picked up. Like the season ending episode of a TV series, we're left with a series of cliffhangers. The story I'm fixated on though is whatever is going on between Darcy and Wickham. Elizabeth has been very dismissive of Darcy, but seems completely taken in by Wickham. It's said of Jane that "it was not in her nature to question the veracity of a young man of such amiable appearance as Wickham". But that seems to be true for Elizabeth too. I reread the scenes from last week where the girls first interact with Wickham. They seem unaware of the idea of a wolf in sheep's clothing, because their good opinion of Wickham seems primarily based on his appearance. "Far beyond [all others]... in person, countenance, air, and walk". I on the other hand wonder why Wickham immediately starts quizzing Elizabeth about Darcy: how far it was to Netherfield; how long he had been there; what the local people thought of him. Then he plunges into his sad tale of how Darcy has mistreated him, which seems an odd over-sharing to someone just met. On rereading I also noted that Wickham never intended to be a soldier; "the church ought to have been my profession", and that when "the living became vacant two years ago...it was given to another man". Hmmm could that other man be who I'm thinking it is?
At this point in the story I'm worried about Elizabeth. In some ways she seems naive and inexperienced, and yet also brash and reckless. Surely we don't want her to accept Collins as a husband, but she has taken a huge risk by rejecting financial stability. She is shocked that her friend Charlotte would sacrifice her better feelings to worldly advantage, but in the few conversations we've witnessed between the two friends, Charlotte has always shown a pragmatic rather than a romantic bent.
Also, what am I to think of Mr. Bennet? He supports Elizabeth's decision with a comment that I want to cheer for her sake, but at the same time it is so cruel to her mother: "Your mother will never see you again if you do not marry Mr. Collins, and I will never see you again if you do." I did not expect to have such sympathy for Mrs. Bennet, but it sure seems like she gets no support from anyone.
YES YES YES! Keep noticing appearances!!! It was all over my notes this week. I keep wondering about how "pride" and "prejudice" are both rooted in visibility and appearances, too.
I'm also loving your reading of Mr. and Mrs. Bennet. What *are* you to think of him? I'd love to know!
Ok, all the hullabaloo about how “proud” Darcy is? He’s basically a socially awkward introvert.
And then everyone is fawning over Mr. Collins, who can’t imagine Lizzie saying no to his proposal? He’s all like “this is all just part of the charade of you saying yes to me,” but he’s not seen as too proud. Whereas Darcy’s makes one socially awkward quip about Lizzie but is mostly just nose-in-a-book and he’s so proud that people are offended.
Most of the men in the book don’t really know how to express themselves. Mr. Bennet is usually reading in the library, Darcy is nose-in-a-book, Wickham seems like maybe he had something to gain by his story. Mr. Collins was an _oversharer_. The women seem more in touch with themselves and have the ability to express their thoughts and feelings, but the men barely do. Except for Bingley—he’s quite expressive. Is he… maybe… not straight? He seems so different from the other men in the novel.
So much has happened in these chapters, but it's Lizzie who has left me perplexed. Collins is too much of a pompous self-aggrandizing fool, I get that, but how can she totally trust what Wickham overshares about Darcy, only on their second meeting?
A good looking and charming man is to be trusted, even when they are barely acquiainted. Lizzie is disappointed that Wickham is not present at the ball, because "she had dressed with more than usual care and prepared in the highest spirits for the conquest of all that remained unsubdued of his heart". Girl, where are you getting all these vibes off of, cos I don't see Wickham saying anything about his heart or feelings at all. Why is she, an apparently sensible girl, crushing so much over this guy she just met?
Doesn't it make her suspicious that Wickham, a wronged man skips a public meeting with someone who has seemingly wronged him? Jane, Charlotte and even Caroline try to warn her about Wickham but she's adamant.
To my mind this is Lizzie's prejudice against Darcy playing out, driven by the fact that he hurt her pride in the second chapter itself by refusing to dance with her, calling her "tolerable".
I get Mrs Bennet, she's anxious to get her daughters married off. Mr Bennet helps to ease the situation in the library but also can he not keep snubbing his wife so often.
My favourite part is when Lizzie and Darcy part after they have danced at the ball. And that's where my favourite quote is from:
"...for in Darcy's breast there was a tolerable powerful feeling towards her, which soon procured her pardon, and directed all his anger against another." Feelings!
Did Austen choose to carefully put the word "tolerable" next to "powerful" when the two seem contradictory?
I can't help but notice the repetition of the word tolerable. Is Austen making a joke? When Darcy first encounters Lizzy, he finds her tolerable and this time he has a tolerable powerful feeling towards her. Gradations of toleration!
Yes, I thought the same!
I am dying at your comment: " Girl, where are you getting all these vibes off of, cos I don't see Wickham saying anything about his heart or feelings at all. Why is she, an apparently sensible girl, crushing so much over this guy she just met?"
lol. right?! I love that Lizzy is *so convinced* that she knows the objective reality of Wickham's feelings when her own are so obviously clouded...
I would love to see you closely read the sentence that juxtaposed "tolerable" with "powerful." Push on that question! It's a GREAT ONE.
OH I love this! Well done!
I've read this novel dozens of time (I will really try not to type any spoilers) and I have to admit that this part (especially as a teenager) is the bit I would skim read - dreading the cringe of Mrs Bennet and Mr Collins etc. So it's really nice to read it slowly and pay attention. It's fascinating how Lizzy doesn't even hesitate for a moment over refusing Mr Collins (not surprising in the context of the story, but surprising for the period perhaps) - he's shockingly blunt about how likely she is to get another offer! I find it fascinating that she knows she can rely on her father's support - I would guess that wouldn't have been the case for a lot of other young women in the same situation. I also had forgotten how blatant Charlotte's catching Mr Collins was - and really interesting to get her perspective. To be frank I completely sympathise with her - I don't think the lives of impoverished spinsters had much to recommend it - whereas even being married to a stupid (but importantly not unkind as far as we can tell) man gave you a household to manage and a degree of respect. I am so glad times have changed! Like others I'm always surprised how Lizzy is so trusting of Wickham but I guess it's partly because she is already prejudiced against Darcy for calling her tolerable! I wonder if she would have been so believing if it was Bingley he was complaining about? (in the unlikely event it was Caroline she would definitely believe him!). I think the lines in Chap 18 are quite telling 'That would be the greatest misfortune of all! To find a man agreeable whom one is determined to hate!' But my favourite line is regarding Mr Collins's second proposal 'In as short a time as Mr Collins's long speeches would allow...' which made me laugh out loud!
Oh I agree completely! I sympathise with Charlotte completely in her actions. Pragmatic for a nonromantic.
When can we watch the next episode of the BBC series?
I’ve just checked and it ends before Charlotte’s proposal so pretty sure no spoilers to watch now. 😊
Oh yes!! You’re okay to watch episode 2!
So much to love about this week - much to digest and I am loving the reflections written here.
I always admired that Mr Collins had the right intentions in trying to assist the family but it would be hard to overcome living with him that is for sure.
At the same time I agree with others who have written that they respect that Charlotte was coming from a different place - both in personality and aspirations. Lizzy thought it would be impossible for her to find happiness when all Charlotte was really looking for was a comfortable home.
In terms of Lizzy refusing the proposal, I was struck and cannot help but feel this may be reflective of the time some ten years earlier when Jane was proposed to, accepted, then after sleeping on it changed her mind. Did she channel her own bravery into Lizzy's nonacceptance? Lizzy was most certainly willing to make impossible choices to advocate her own happiness as you wrote Hayley. She, indeed, was not content to fall in with the 'universal' and stood strong in a time and society when this was not the done thing. To use a quote from Star Wars, there may have been 'a great disturbance in the force' the day Lizzy refused.
**My favorite line in this post: “Mr. Bennet wants to be left alone to his library, dammit.” (lol)**
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In regard to the novel:
My book is not separated into Volumes, but I like how Maryann compared this “ending” to a season cliffhanger. Everything that seemed to be leading up to the classic happy ending (a wedding scene) was totally upended.
I didn’t care for Mr. Collins, but I was still kind of happy when he was “successful” with Charlotte. Those two seemed to be all business and I think it worked out for them.
Mrs. B’s pride was so prickled by Charlotte’s catch — and Lady Lucas coming over to rub it in her face (having a daughter *well settled* and all)!! Mrs. B was getting a full serving of crow pie there.
I got the feeling Charlotte also had a moment of pride at Lizzy’s disbelief when she asked her something like, “Is it so hard to believe that I would engage myself to someone you deemed unworthy of interest?”
*brb, life calls me away
Lol I sometimes relate to Mr. Bennet WAY TOO MUCH.
There are so many cliffhangers, aren't there?! (And note: I've added continuous chapter numbers to our schedule and I'll be using them in each weekly guide, too, so you don't have to do your own math on the chapter numbers. I hope that helps!)
I like your reading of Charlotte's unexpected moment of pride. I had never noticed that before!
These chapters were packed with so much, and then ended with the surprising first 2 marriage proposals, within days of each other, by the same man to different girls. Interesting that the resulting match is two people who see marriage as more of an arrangement for duty and comfort, than love. In the “business of life” only Charlotte and Mr. Collins have “succeeded” thus far. (Poor Mrs. Bennet, who has been working so hard with no success!)
In earlier chapters, Elizabeth never quite believed Charlotte's stated views on marriage (happiness in marriage” is entirely a matter of chance,” and “it is better to know as little as possible of the defects of the person”) and Lizzie even told her “that you would never act in this way yourself.” But Charlotte would! And, she did!
Charlotte surprised me. It turns out that she wasn’t just going to let life happen to her, but she did a little “scheming” to turn Mr. Collin’s addresses towards herself. And it wasn’t just after his proposal to Lizzie. At the ball, Charlotte had “good-naturedly engaged Mr. Collins” away from Lizzie many times, when he persisted in giving Lizzie too much attention on that train-wreck of a night.
I don’t think Charlotte is going into this marriage blindly. She is older, and so she has had more time to worry about what might actually happen to her. But I’m starting to think that she is a lot more in control of this situation than it seems. And even though I would never want to be in her situation to have to marry a Mr. Collins, or do what she did to Lizzie’s family, I can see why she did what she did when she realized that she could maneuver Mr. Collins. I think she will learn how to keep maneuvering him so that he will feel like he is in charge, but it will actually be her!
I am so here for this reading of Charlotte!
I quite like how the first sentence is echoed or better added dimension in chapter 22 when Charlotte reflects:"Without thinking highly either of men or of matrimony, marriage had always been her object; it was the only honourable provision for well-educated women of small fortune, and however uncertain of giving happiness, must be their pleasantest preservative from want."
How different is the situation of men and women.
Oh: excellent comparison there!! “A single man with a good fortune” versus “well-educated women of small fortune.”
my thought, exactly!
Hayley - this is such fun! Thank you for guidance through the story. I’m enjoying all the thoughtful comments and discussions.
I apologize if this point has already been made and I missed it. If Mrs. Bennett would have honestly admitted (to herself) that Lizzy and Collins were not a good match from the get go or even listened to her when she said she didn’t want to marry him, perhaps things would have been different. If she had used the time to encourage and nurture a relationship with one of the other sisters as opposed to badgering Lizzy and insisting that they marry Charlotte may not have had her opportunity. Or, perhaps the sisters must be married off in the order of birth?
My favorite quote this week involved Mr. Bennet trying to console Mrs. Bennet about her losing Longbourn to Charlotte when he passes. “My dear, do not give way to such gloomy thoughts. Let us hope for better things. Let us flatter ourselves that I may be the survivor.” In other words - “Honey, if you die first, you will have nothing to worry about.” Mr. Bennet rocks! I look forward to seeing the version of “P&P” with Donald Sutherland playing Mr. B, I bet he’s awesome in the role.
That’s a good observation—I just assumed that Mrs. Bennet was operating from the assumption that the man gets to pick his wife—and women or even the families of women—have to accept the offer that is given. She doesn’t think women have agency at all.
I'm so happy you're having fun!!
I have a question for you, based on what some other readers have noted about self-awareness: do you believe Mrs. Bennet can actually be honest with herself about her daughters' true, unique selves? I agree that things could've been different if Mrs. Bennet reacted differently: but so far in the novel, I wonder if we hav any reason to believe that Mrs. Bennet is capable of self-awareness on the level it'd take for her to actually alter her impressively impulsive reactions to her daughters' choices (especially Lizzy's!)
And to answer your question: the girls do not have to be married in order, but as we learn in week 5 (out now!), Lady Catherine is shocked to hear that all 5 sisters are "out" in society at once. It was customary for the eldest daughters to be settled before the younger ones would be allowed to go to balls to meet men.
I don’t think Mrs. Bennett can be honest with herself about who her daughters truly are. I think she’s a woman with good intentions, but maybe lacking some common sense and practicality.
This does lead me to wonder if her relationship would have changed with Lizzie, had she married Collins and “saved the family home”. Would she no longer be her least favored daughter?
Thank you Haley!
I feel rather bad for Mary.
I’ve noticed a trend in Austen’s “reaction paragraphs” that Jane and Elizabeth are usually always, separately mentioned; Kitty and Lydia are usually grouped together doing something silly; and Mary, if she is mentioned, is sort of tacked on.
It’s shown that Jane is Mrs. B’s favorite and Elizabeth is Mr. B’s — then comes Mary who is neither beautiful nor smart. It feels like she tries extra hard to be musically attractive and intellectually clever in order to bring attention to herself. She even agreed to marry Mr. Collins if he should come to her next.
I’m really hoping to see her by the end of the novel find something she actually enjoys for herself, especially if it’s something simple and wholesome, and she learn to accept herself and not try so hard.
Also, even though we’ve been told by Mr. Bennet that he prefers Lizzy because she “has something more a quickness” than the other girls, all I’ve seen is her act more boyish than the others: running through the rain and mud, speaking her mind about people’s character to their face, and turning down marriage security for “better feelings” (even though it makes sense to us modern women).
*life calls me away again…
Kristin - I like your observation of Lizzy being “boyish”. It leads me to think she must have been the “son” Mr. Bennet never had. I would guess this may be a family dynamic sometimes in family’s with multiple daughters and no sons.
I have two favourite quotes from this week, again highlighting juxtaposition:
"Your mother will never see you again if you do not marry Mr. Collins, and I will never see you again if you do."
"The more I see of the world, the more am I dissatisfied with it; and every day confirms my belief of the inconsistency of all human characters, and of the little dependence that can be placed on the appearance of either merit or sense."
I’ll get to the prompts and the details later, but I have to put this up here……what this section of the book seems to be about is self awareness. The complete lack of self awareness on the part of characters like Mr. Collins and Mrs. Bennet cause the reader to curl up in a shrimplike posture, cringing on their behalf. That is contrasted with the self awareness of Elizabeth’s and of her friend Charlotte Lucas who is perfectly aware of who she is, what her limitations are in the musical chairs marriage market painted by Austen, and so marries Mr. Collins and gets on with it.
The characters that are self aware vs. the characters that are oblivious..that will drive the story……
To be honest, I struggled to engage with the story until this section of the book and then it was like a hound scenting a fox and we are OFF!!!! I could not put it down and even as I puzzled over some of the sentences and the word usage—I had to go back and read and sometimes write down a sentence using other words…..she does love her double negatives….the story really started to move.
Edited to add—
Jane Austen’s description of the social environment is jarring to our modern sensibilities. It’s a market economy—except the buyers and sellers are coming together to form family alliances. The closest analogy in our world might be the real estate market. I talked about self awareness above—there is a market dimension to that awareness—-some characters know their value on the marriage market, and some are wildly unrealistic.
This was my favorite sentence since it sums up Mrs. Bennet’s stupidity, venality, and obliviousness:
“Elizabeth was the least dear to her of all her children; and though the man and the match were quite good enough for her, the worth of each was eclipsed by Mr. Bingley and Netherfield.” The word “dear” is operating on two levels here-the emotional tie being what we would see, but “dear” used to be a term for costly or expensive—so Austen could be saying that Mrs. Bennet viewed Elizabeth as the least marketable of her daughters.
It’s obvious to the reader that she’s counting her chickens…Jane will not be marrying Bingley, but she thinks that Jane has it in the bag. Austen likes to set up parallels. I compared Elizabeth and Charlotte above—both are self aware and know what their choices are, and are determined to live their lives within the bounds of the society they inhabit. They have a realistic view of what they can achieve in the “market” of marriage. Collins and Mrs. Bennet are parallel characters—from opposite sides of the transaction—Collins as a buyer, Bennet as a seller in the marriage market. Both are oblivious to their “fair market value.”
I am finding the word usages really fascinating. Word usage evolves over time, and so what the author meant when choosing a particular word or phrase and what I, the modern reader, understands may be different. I have to slow down and think about some of the ideas because they can be unclear at first—the example I gave of the meaning of “dear” is just one instance. I find myself asking “why did she use this word, as opposed to another word?” What did she mean? Do I think it means what she thought this meant?” It’s adding to my enjoyment of the novel since it is like solving a puzzle. There will be sections that are muddy or confusing at first and the I’ll decode it and it’s like “AH HAH!!”
And some things just never change. No means NO Mr. Collins! Ouch that whole proposal scene was cringe—-it was like reading a story about date rape.
This is a gorgeous reading of where we're at in the novel right now. I love this lens of self-awareness and reading characters through their ability to be aware of others. Another reader has noted that Lizzy's great challenge is becoming aware of others' needs and understanding they are going to be different from her own (for example: Charlotte actually marrying Collins).
I am so glad that this was the week that your fox nose caught the scent and that you're hot on the trail of such a gorgeous close reading now. Thanks for being here and engaging so deeply with the story!!
“Headstrong foolish girl” hoodie 😆
Girl I want one! lol. And Etsy for SURE has them.