Glad you are protecting your time for things beyond Middlemarch! And I love you mentioned "Oh Fudge". That phrase brought me up short and I had to look up its origins as I thought it would have been much more modern than this book.
The Brooks exit. Other Middlemarch inhabitants enter, primarily the Vincys and their extended family. These chapters with the Vincy clan and all the talk of marriage had me double checking that we'd not slipped into an Austen novel. That family would have fit right in.
As I was meeting these new characters, I was interested in the ones that seem to have eyes on the Featherstone inheritance and how he is enjoying stringing them all along. I'm watching for more from Mary Garth, who lives with him as a sort of nursemaid/servant, but why oh why is the "plain" girl always named Mary?
It's an interesting stylistic switch when the narrator takes over a chapter to fill in the past history of the new to Middlemarch doctor, Lydgate. He, like Ladislaw, is a wildcard. I'm keeping my eye on both of them
Rosamond Vincy is also keeping her eye on Lydgate. Like Dorothea with Causabon, Rosamond considers Lydgate for what she wants to get from him. "It was part of Rosamond’s cleverness to discern very subtly the faintest aroma of rank". Where Dorothea wanted knowledge, Rosamund wants a rise in rank "a little nearer to that celestial condition on earth in which she would have nothing to do with vulgar people”. Contrasting these two women is going to be fun.
But the character that really made me grind my teeth was the banker, Bulstrode. This banker obviously is aware of everyone's financial status, which gives him power. He's a bully who uses his religiosity to justify, at least to himself, his financial dealings with the Middlemarch populace. "To point out other people’s errors was a duty that Mr. Bulstrode rarely shrank from.” His religious pomposity and hypocrisy cut too close to current reality. Be gone, you evil toad. Let's get back to the Brooks, please.
Yes!! Bulstrode felt just plainly evil to me — and I loved a lot of the language associated with him: "the banker was evidently a ruler," and "It was a principle with Mr Bulstrode to gain as much power as possible, that he might use it for the glory of God." but we know it's not really for the glory of god; it's for his own benefit and his own glory; to keep up appearances he has to "adjust his motives" (a phrase that had me laughing out loud).
He's a bit of a vampire isn't he? The novel uses the phrase: "he must have a sort of vampire's feast in the sense of mastery" and I'm really hanging onto that. Vampires are takers who suck others dry; dangerous language for a banker who keeps others' money for them and desires ever-growing power...
Oh! And on this note. I noticed at the end of chapter 16, "banking" language around Rosamond's attention toward Lydgate:
"Rosamond had *registered* every look and word, and *estimated* them as the opening incidents of a preconceived romance -- incidents which gather *value* from the foreseen development and climax."
I was interested in how he also seems to need to maintain strict self-control with his food “regimen”. It will be interesting to see if that becomes something more than a passing comment.
The parallels between Dorothea and Rosamund are so well done, both convince themselves they've fallen in love, but it's an ideal they're chasing rather than a person.
So smart! I didn’t make the connection, but yes — they’re both looking to escape their current circumstances. Dorothea wants more scope for her ideals and energy, and Rosamund wants to escape her middle class connections and move up socially.
Yes! I've been pondering the strange nature of Dorothea's desire/decision to marry Casaubon. She believes she's acting selflessly in dedicating all her powers to something "higher" but she's totally glossing over Casaubon as a person who might want to be seen and known. Weirdly enough, her need to bend everything to the service of a greater good has a lot of selfishness to it imo. Rosamond is at least more straightforward about her self-centeredness lol.
I agree wholeheartedly with your feelings towards the illustrious banker, Bulstrode. Although I do note that he clearly is not a complete master of all, as the opening sentence in Ch. 14 makes clear:
Mr. Bulstrode's consultation with Harriet seemed to have had the effect desired by Mr. Vincy, for early the next morning a letter came which Fred could carry to Mr. Featherstone as the required testimony.
Oh. Very good. I wonder if that'll be some pressure or tension roiling under the surface: Bulstrode seems to *want* to be master of all...will he be successful?
Thanks for keeping us moving along. I’m enjoying the slow reading experience and am using all formats: audio, e-book and real book. I’m enjoying having Eliot’s voice in my head. But that long chapter (or chapters) on medical philosophy? The only reward out of that was the spicy detail on the French actress. The Vincy family does seem soap opera-like. The audio says we are 20% complete so that’s progress!
That bit on medical practice was looong. If I wasn't holding myself accountable to this process, I'd have skipped ahead. Worth it for the big reveal? I guess, but still would have been happy to get there sooner.
Ooh, 20%. Good to know! And 100% agree with you re. the medical philosophy sections. I loved the actress character and I would have loved to have just stayed there.
Now that's a major win for the audiobook: a percentage tracker!! I just know, in my paperback, how the weight shifts in my hands as we chug along through sections. Hahaha.
I’m curious what people are thinking about the narrator! I was kind of gobsmacked (in a good way) in Chapter 10, when they insert themselves after pages and pages of characters roasting Casaubon (lol) to remind us to question what we’re hearing/who we’re hearing it from.
But then, in this section, the narrator themself ALSO became a person who I’m questioning — why are they choosing to share some things and not others? And I’m also tracking WHEN they reveal new information to us. When we first meet the Vincys, there’s a line to the effect of “everyone who’s anyone in Middlemarch knows the Vincys” — but we’re almost 100 pages in and just meeting them for the first time!
Also, that scene between Fred and Mary felt straight out of a Nora Ephron movie! The witty banter!!! Overall, I’m really enjoying this — it often feels like hearing someone give really good and lengthy gossip (maybe especially because the narrator feels a little sassy!)
Before I felt the narrator was moving the characters about like chess pieces. Now I'm wondering if it's we the readers that are being manipulated by the narrator. That whole bit about Lydgate and the murdering actress seems so out of left field. Before that he had seemed like an innocent idealist.
The murdering actress seems to be signaling something much larger (and more dangerous) about how people perform for each other — and can make things that are not true seem to be so with ease.
And, as she's Lydgate's first love, and Rosamond seems bent on being his second, I can't help but see the parallels between them. Like an actress, Rosamond is keenly aware of being seen and perceived by others. She's always performing, and like you said, always calculating...
Oooh good point! There's so much about how Rosamond is always performing! I think it even says she doesn't quite know she's performing her own personality at one point.
Oh, that's a fun wrinkle. Does Rosamon *know* she's an actress? Like, we know she's aware of being perceived...does that mean she's performative? Does it mean she thinks of herself as performative? Fantastic, provocative questions!
The narrator is puzzling to me as well! Especially with all the information on Lydgate. Why is it so key to jump in and give us his whole history? I think there's even a mention that it's important for us to know so we judge him on the whole of his character or something along those lines. Why don't we get these asides for all other characters? Who is this sneaky narrator?
I think it might be because no one is going to ask Lydgate about himself and the narrator clearly wants his story told. The other characters know each other if not from childhood and over generations, and/or married into each other’s families that any one of them could give their opinions, character analysis and backstories. Part why Rosamond wants to marry a stranger?
The narrator I think is inserting herself in order to provide a broader view of characters plus the context of Middlemarch in an era of change - medically, socially, politically. Things are being shook up but only the narrator (so far) has the “big picture”.
I'm lowkey rooting for Fred and Mary, I hope he grows a spine and wins her love. As for the narrator, whenever there is a huge cast of character I always find myself wondering who is the writer identifying with? Are there any self-portraits? Does Eliot have favorites, and are these favorites showing despite her trying to be objective?
Oh so many thoughts on the narrator! I looked up Fielding and thought it was interesting that she’s putting herself in conversation with him but claims to have a smaller web of characters and interactions to analyze. Wiki says Fielding is known for comedy, satire, and writing Tom Jones, which had a cast of characters from all strata of society illustrating the full gamut of moral characters.
I think she has to tell us about Lydgate because as (I think?) the only outsider no other characters know enough about him to shine a light on his character or past misadventures like they do for everyone else.
In terms of trustworthiness, it can also be tricky to parse out when she’s being a little sarcastic/humorous and when she’s being serious. (Overall I don’t read this narrator as super-serious.) I do think she’s toying with us a bit, leading us to think a certain way about Casaubon and then challenging our conclusions, leading us to think one way about Lydgate and then whisking back the curtain to reveal a whole other side to him. But not in a sense that makes me feel the ultimate takeaways are (or at least in the end will be) suspect. I think she’s using the misdirection to reveal certain truths about humanity (ours and the characters’).
As I write, it feels related to the preoccupation with science and experimentation throughout the book. Given these facts, reach those conclusions, now examine if the conclusions (and facts, for that matter) are trustworthy.
I love what you said about how hard it is to tell when she's being sarcastic and when she's being serious. I've had a few moments where I think I've potentially "over-read" a scene, only to go back and realize it was meant to be funny. (Last week, this happened with the very literal conversation about fishing that I thought was deeply metaphorical haha.)
I am so enjoying this slow read - the humor is really evident to me this time and I love seeing other readers' ideas and interpretations here. I thought the first paragraphs of Chapter 11 were a bit of a counterpoint to/in conversation with the opening lines of Pride & Prejudice about a man in possession of a good fortune being in want of a wife.
There's a line in the beginning pages of Chapter 11, "Destiny stands by sarcastic with our dramatis personae folded in her hand" - could this be the narrator describing herself?
The big theme that keeps arising for me is inconsistency - in what each member of the "couples" want or expect from each other; in how Bulstrode's morals and business practices (don't) align; in Fred and Mary's views of work, responsibility, and love; and in the ideas of established Middlemarchers versus those who are new to the town. I'm going to continue watching for this theme in the next section.
Middlemarch is such a gossip factory! So far, I think Mary might be my favorite character because she doesn't want to hear about the Featherstone scandal or participate in spreading rumors. Rosamond seems a bit shallow (and a little mean to Fred), but it doesn't seem to stand out in Middlemarch. It's pretty clear that she is going to go after Lydgate because he's new to society and comes from a good family.
Lydgate is definitely more eloquent in speech than Fred. I can't tell who is more cruel, Featherstone or Bulstrode. They are both pretty awful, especially how Featherstone seem to toy with Fred's emotions in Chapter 14. I can't tell, yet, if anything will happen between Fred and Mary. There does seem to be a bit of flirting, but Mary doesn't seem like she's taking Fred seriously as a suitor. Either way, I'm rooting more for Lydgate and Rosamond, even if Lydgate claims he won't be getting married any time soon!
Mary is my favorite from these chapters too, but I'm also gonna put in a good word for Rosamund, she's a bit shallow for sure, but she's so young! More importantly, why does she want a husband with aristocratic status? She comes from a family of lower class parvenus and while her brother lazies about she's scheming to get ahead in life, something that she couldn't have achieved 50 years prior but times are a-changing and Rosamund is on top of things. It makes her look smarter than Fred, doesn't it?
Excellent point! I forget how young these characters are, and especially with the women, I forget how strategic they must be in order to secure their futures. Rosamond is definitely more active than Fred!
"Our vanities differ as our noses do: all conceit is not the same conceit, but varies in correspondence with the minutiae of mental make in which one of us differs from another."
I love the image of us all wearing our vanities on our faces like our noses!
Other than the quote Adrian called out, I also underlined this one: "When a conversation has taken a wrong turn for us, we only get farther and farther into the swamp of awkwardness."
Nowadays we'd say sticking our foot in our mouth, but that phrase "swamp of awkwardness" seems perfect. I'm rooting for Fred. I hope he can give up gambling!
I was absolutely gagged when I ran into this line: "To be born the son of a Middlemarch manufacturer and inevitable heir to nothing in particular while such men as Mainwaring and Vyan -- certainly life was a poor business when a spirited young fellow with a good appetite for the best of everything had so poor an outlook." I was like, 'What the what?! That's 'How Soon is Now?' Sure, enough: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_Soon_Is_Now%3F
Maybe because of that, Fred, Rosamund, and Mary became my favorite characters so far. I think Rosamund is so clever and I love how she plots and schemes, but is pretty and femme enough to sort of get away with it (certainly by men, but also by Mary and her mother). Fred reminds me of who I would have been head over heels for at 20. Sensitive, reckless when drunk, dreams already frustrated lol. I was like, 'We must be in Wicker Park again.' Mary is wonderful to read. I love how funny and wry and real she is. I'm rooting for her.
Man, though, I will say I'm reading DESPITE this narrator. I find the narrator's heavy hand so overbearing and even dull. Chapters 15 and 16 (Lydegate's history) and so forth were a SLOG for me to get through. The medical history and trying to professionalize the intellectual inquiry felt like those sections on biological facts about whales in Moby Dick. I'm sure someone has written a dissertation about it, and I'm positive I'm missing something, but it was a chore to get through. I can imagine how someone who didn't have an external pressure to finish might just give up then and there. It kind of goes against everything we're taught in creative writing school, as well. LOTS of telling (thanks for pointing that out, Haley).
I'm still game for continuing because I'm genuinely curious about where these characters will end up. I just know that I'll have to read against my tastes when the narrator comes back on the page to get there.
I also had the feeling that I must be missing something very important/clever/intelligent in those bits. I was listening to an audiobook in that section, and I think that helped me get through it a little bit as sometimes those long slogging passages are easier to listen to for me. My mind wanders less than when I'm try to read it.
I just did a slow read of Middlemarch with a book club last year and one of the people in it was a historian of the era and provided some very helpful info. At this point is when medicine as a field is entering it's more scientific and less folksy/potions era. Eliot was fascinated with this personally and i think is partly why it fills so many pages. Lydgate believes in this new more scientific medicine and represents change coming to town, (also more general technological change, the advent of trains, etc) which becomes a contrast with the old school doctors and old guard that have long existed in Middlemarch. Also of note is Eliot published this in the early 1870s, but it takes place in 1829-1830, the book leads up to the first major cholera epidemic in Britain, the full consequences of which everyone in the 1870s reading this would have been aware of, but the characters of the book do not know yet. It is occasionally mentioned, subtly, towards the end. I wouldn't have known any of this if this one guy wasn't in my book club, so passing it along! All that said, the medical stuff is the most difficult section by a long shot! So if you've made it this far the rest of the book is a real pleasure.
So funny. I love the narrator. Her commentary is what makes this book so funny. At this point in the book, with the possible exception of Lydgate, the characters don’t seem very engaging.
I’m still slogging through. I stopped mid chapter 15 and read this post which encouraged me to finish to get to the juicy actress tidbit. I do not like the narrator’s portions, to me the language is more presumptuous & difficult to understand than the other sections.
I think you share that feeling with many readers!! The narrator is almost like...the least interesting character in our cast. I find myself thinking of them as the loudest voice in the room (and one I'm wanting to turn down so I can turn up the volume on people like Rosamond and Mary!)
I love this discussion about the narrative voice doing so much telling - I agree, and I think it goes off the rails in that long description of Lydgate and his ideas about medical practice - the first time I read Middlemarch, I almost stopped reading at this point. I didn’t even remember the detail about the actress, and while it’s a welcome infusion of weirdness (and a sly way to undercut the rest of it), it also has the feel of gossip being relayed - which maybe is the point.
Lydgate provides an outside perspective on Middlemarch, but the in-the-know narrator is also judging him as he’ll be judged (and consumed) by everyone else. And I wonder what other readers here think of him - I’ll state flatly that I don’t like him or, more accurately, don’t enjoy his lack of self-awareness.
For those slogging for the first time, it does get better once all the main players have been introduced (as they have been). It’s my understanding that Eliot brought together two different pieces of writing - a story about “Miss Brooke” and a longer draft outline about this provincial town. The transition seams still show in this section, especially with all that telling.
I compare the tedious Lydgate section with the way Mrs. Cadwallader was introduced - bargaining over a chicken with a servant who smiles at the woman’s sharp bargaining skills. We get plenty of wry editorial comment about what Mrs. Cadwallader thinks and feels, too, but the combination of showing and telling brings the character to life. Same is true for Mary Garth - another great character constrained by her circumstances - but not with the men IMHO, except as “types.”
By the way, Haley, your discussion of that favorite quote is beautiful.
I was just reading something earlier this week about how the first draft of Middlemarch had *no Dorothea!* It was all Lydgate's story — and eventually, Eliot decided to incorporate those two pieces together. I think we maybe have made it past the place where that "weaving together" was happening most overtly, and maybe now the characters and their stories will start to weave a little tighter?
I love this discussion about the narrative voice doing so much telling - I agree, and I think it goes off the rails in that long description of Lydgate and his ideas about medical practice - the first time I read Middlemarch, I almost stopped reading at this point. I didn’t even remember the detail about the actress, and while it’s a welcome infusion of weirdness (and a sly way to undercut the rest of it), it also has the feel of gossip being relayed - which maybe is the point.
Lydgate provides an outside perspective on Middlemarch, but the in-the-know narrator is also judging him as he’ll be judged (and consumed) by everyone else. And I wonder what other readers here think of him - I’ll state flatly that I don’t like him or, more accurately, don’t enjoy his lack of self-awareness.
For those slogging for the first time, it does get better once all the main players have been introduced (as they have been). It’s my understanding that Eliot brought together two different pieces of writing - a story about “Miss Brooke” and a longer draft outline about this provincial town. The transition seams still show in this section, especially with all that telling.
I compare the tedious Lydgate section with the way Mrs. Cadwallader was introduced - bargaining over a chicken with a servant who smiles at the woman’s sharp bargaining skills. We get plenty of wry editorial comment about what Mrs. Cadwallader thinks and feels, too, but the combination of showing and telling brings the character to life. Same is true for Mary Garth - another great character constrained by her circumstances - but not with the men IMHO, except as “types.”
By the way, Haley, your discussion of that favorite quote is beautiful.
I mostly agree with everyone saying that these chapters were a bit harder to get through, but I also found just enough rewarding pieces of writing, information or dialogue to make it worth it to me!
For me one of the central themes in these chapters was the difference between the country people and the town people (i.e. the Vincys). Surely the Vincys can’t be actually poor as a manufacturer’s family that also dabbles in politics, but both Fred and Rosamond worry about their marriage prospects because of their family’s (lack of) money and status. And towards the end of chapter 16 it’s implied that the country people look down on the Middlemarchers, so I’m very intrigued to see this dynamic unfold in the future.
My favorite part of this week’s reading was the conversation between Mary and Fred! The dialogue was so much fun to read even though the actual topic of their conversation was rather serious. Loved what Mary had to say and Fred was such a drama queen, talking about blowing his brains out. But does Mary actually love Fred or not?? I couldn’t tell definitively!
Lydgate’s backstory was very interesting! I also immediately thought of Casaubon because of the academic ambitions. I also think one of the biggest differences (apart from their chosen fields of study) is that Lydgate had that love affair with the actress whereas Casaubon has never been in love (I think we learn that in the chapters leading up to the marriage?). So I’m looking forward to seeing if Lydgate is going to follow into Casaubon’s footsteps marriage-wise and how his story with Rosamond is going to unfold. It was almost painful to read about their different expectations and opinions on the other (but I totally get both of their reasonings!).
One of the quotes that stuck for me this week was right at the end of chapter 16: „ (…) in being from morning till night her own standard of a perfect lady, having always an audience in her own consciousness“ maybe that just means she’s self-absorbed lol but it made me think of that Margaret Atwood quote about being your own voyeur as a woman.
Lastly, didn’t think I’d get a The Smiths ear worm (is that even a thing you say in English? My native language is German haha) from this book but here we are!
I also loved the conversation between Mary and Fred! It was so playful. He was being petulant and she was taking no shit. Even though Fred is a bit annoying, I'm so interested in this relationship - I think because in all the other romantic relationships we've seen the power dynamic is clearly in the favour of the man, whereas this seems to challenge that.
"but it made me think of that Margaret Atwood quote about being your own voyeur as a woman." That is amazing. I think you're onto something there — in the sense that Atwood is writing about how much women have to be aware of themselves and almost take on the male gaze *and* their own self-awareness as twin gazes, always on the self.
John Berger said: "Men look at women. Women watch themselves being looked at."
Thank you for your work in making the reading of this novel such a pleasure Hayley, and thanks to the group for being so interactive. I’m doing 5 Substack reads at the moment and this group has more interactions than my other reads!
My favourite quote of the week came from Mary who I really like as a character. Fred has just informed her that Mr Waule is in love with her and Mary replies:
“I am not aware of it. And to me it is one of the most odious things in a girl’s life, that there must always be some supposition of falling in love coming between her and any man who is kind to her, and to whom she is grateful. I should have thought that I, at least, might have been safe from all that. I have no ground for the nonsensical vanity of fancying everybody who comes near me is in love with me”.
Such a contrast to Rosamond:
“She judged of her own symptoms as those of awakening love, and she held it still more natural that Mr Lydgate should have fallen in love at first sight of her…..Rosamond was rather used to being fallen in love with”.
And I love the humour, my favourite laugh out loud moment this week:
“If you are not proud of your cellar, there is no thrill of satisfaction in seeing your guest hold up his wineglass to the light and look judicially”.
Wow so this week particularly the end of book one I felt like we zoomed out in scope, even with all the narrators talk of focusing on the specifics and individuals the scope of the novel has quickly widened and the characters and what they think of each other is becoming harder to keep track off.
I think there is definitely something going on about projection and mirrors.
With discussions of Lydgate and a stranger in town we are seeing the ways in which all characters project their own self into how they view each other. I particularly enjoyed the concept of Rosamond having already married him in her head as it shows how carried away we can get on fantasy with so little encouragement from the other person and their actual behaviour or personality. Are we interacting with others? Or are we interacting with figments of our own imagination we have created in the image of others?
Similarly I think Lydgate does this with women, we are told in the character study of chapter 15 that for all his learning and seeking of knowledge he has not turned that great big mind of his into expanding his idea of women and instead possesses more of a common or lay person's taste and prejudice in female companionship. I see in how he thinks of Rosamond that he is not seeing her as a person so much as an image, a reflection. A representation. An ideal?
I particularly loved this quote from the start of chapter 11:
p94"Plain women he regarded as he did the other severe facts of life, to be faced with philosophy and investigated by science"
I think the way he fools himself with regards to Rosamond will be important as after the story of his experience with the actress it says, he believes illusions are at an end for him, and that he will approach women with a more scientific view yet I think we already see that this is not happening in how he approaches Rosamond, in a way she already has him fooled by her image!
I think it interesting as well that Rosy & Mary's conversation happened in front of a mirror which features in the narration. Rosy discounts the importance of beauty in a way that only one possessed of it can do. On page 112 Rosamond and her reflection are described as two nymphs with "eyes of heavenly blue, deep enough to hold the most exquisite meanings an ingenius beholder could put into them, and deep enough to hide the meanings of the owner if these should happen to be less exquisite" Setting up the difference between what we see in others & what truly exists there.
I thought Fred and Mary were interesting mirrors for each other, both would prefer to live with or deal with the old miser Mr Featherstone than gain employment. Mary would rather live at stone court and be treated poorly than work as a teacher and Fred would rather lounge around and debase himself to the whims of the old man than work hard for his money. I wasn't entirely clear on Mary's feelings for Fred but I suspect her sole objection to marrying him is based on the fact that neither of them have any money. I wasn't sure what the stuff about the bill held in security was, for Fred's gambling debt. Am I right in reading it that he owes money to Mary's father? Which is not a great look Fred if you hope to marry the girl!
I did find Fred at times insufferable, particularly when he was introduced as the spoiled child of Mrs Vincy and the insufferable brother of Rosy. But I found his optimism and faith around life and money endearing and his relationship with Mary intriguing and delightful.
I particularly loved Mary for saying "I think any hardship is better than pretending to do what one is paid for, and never really doing it" and Fred when he said, "Well, I am not fit to be a poor man. I should not have made a bad fellow if I had been rich."
I find myself relating to all the characters in some capacity and enjoying their complexity. I even enjoyed the conversation between Mr Vincy and Mr Bulstrode, as I felt it interesting that two adult men could discuss their families and doing what is right and openly be disagreeing whilst trying to get along as they all have to co-exist.
To be fair to Mary, her other option is to be a governess, which was an extremely difficult position - living in someone else's household, neither part of the family nor exactly one of the servants (which could be very lonely), and vulnerable to various abuses and mistreatment. Living with and near family was likely preferable -- and safer.
Extremely true! And I probably didn't think of it to that level beyond my initial reaction of damn Mary stop telling fred to work when you don't want to either! haha But also to be fair to her, her desire for him to work is probably rooted in the fact that it is literally the only pathway beyond inheritance in which he would have money for a marriage.
I think Mary *is* working. This sort of companion arrangement for elderly family members was quite common (think Jo and Aunt March in Little Women). Like Jo, she receives a stipend or wage. And she certainly earns that money: she puts up with a lot from Featherstone, and is basically on call all day.
Ok this is the last time I'm responding to this, because I think you are just misinterpreting what I am saying. I agree Mary has to put up with a lot. I was making a point that they are both choosing their hard. i.e. choosing to put up with Mr Featherstone rather than do something else, as I said in my original comment. I literally have no problem with Mary's choice, in fact I relate to it, as a similar choice and arrangement is present in my own life.
I literally say in my comment "Mary would rather live at stone court and be treated poorly..." acknowledging the difficulty. and I quote her talking about her own hardship. I never once said she has an easy life, and I think there are many valuable things one can do in life beyond paid employment. So any negative view towards Mary that you think exists here is something you are placing there.... Just a mirror, like the text. Not working for money is not a negative thing in my opinion.
Hi :) I don't think there's misinterpretation happening here — I think there's discussion of what drives Mary's and Fred's decisions to remain in Featherstone's orbit, tinged with the fact that we all bring ourselves (and our differences in experience and lifestyle) to reading classics.
Katya brings up an excellent point (as I read it) that Mary's options are quite limited: whether she stays with Featherstone or becomes a governess, she has no life of leisure ahead.
And Percy, you bring up an excellent point too — we're not crystal clear on all of Mary's reasons for rejecting Fred (yet??) but it seems to have something to do with money and their class standing.
There's anxiety, as both of you point out, for Mary. Whether she's paid or not, whether she's married or not, her life isn't getting "easier" in any way that seems to feel meaningful to her (at this point in the story, at least).
It seems we're negotiating a provocative question about what her life may have felt like (something that, so far, Eliot is pretty good at teasing out on a smaller scale, and I'm eager to see how she'll play out in the hundreds of pages we have left).
Both of you have led me to wonder more deeply: what does "ease" mean for women during the Victorian era? What does "ease" mean for someone like Mary, in this time period? And, by contrast, what does "ease" mean for Fred — whose relationship to Featherstone and potential for a kind of social ruin (as a gambler!) present different challenges.
a favorite line from this week: "If you are not proud of your cellar, there is no thrill of satisfaction in seeing your guest hold up his wine-glass to the light and look judicial."
I love all the scientific interludes! And she cites Mammon (which I first heard of via Slate Star Codex), so that's fun, like seeing an old friend unexpectedly at an incongruous party in another country from where you first met.
and Mr. Farebrother was wonderfully described - "...the brilliancy was all in his quick gray eyes. He came like a pleasant change in the light"
Glad you are protecting your time for things beyond Middlemarch! And I love you mentioned "Oh Fudge". That phrase brought me up short and I had to look up its origins as I thought it would have been much more modern than this book.
The Brooks exit. Other Middlemarch inhabitants enter, primarily the Vincys and their extended family. These chapters with the Vincy clan and all the talk of marriage had me double checking that we'd not slipped into an Austen novel. That family would have fit right in.
As I was meeting these new characters, I was interested in the ones that seem to have eyes on the Featherstone inheritance and how he is enjoying stringing them all along. I'm watching for more from Mary Garth, who lives with him as a sort of nursemaid/servant, but why oh why is the "plain" girl always named Mary?
It's an interesting stylistic switch when the narrator takes over a chapter to fill in the past history of the new to Middlemarch doctor, Lydgate. He, like Ladislaw, is a wildcard. I'm keeping my eye on both of them
Rosamond Vincy is also keeping her eye on Lydgate. Like Dorothea with Causabon, Rosamond considers Lydgate for what she wants to get from him. "It was part of Rosamond’s cleverness to discern very subtly the faintest aroma of rank". Where Dorothea wanted knowledge, Rosamund wants a rise in rank "a little nearer to that celestial condition on earth in which she would have nothing to do with vulgar people”. Contrasting these two women is going to be fun.
But the character that really made me grind my teeth was the banker, Bulstrode. This banker obviously is aware of everyone's financial status, which gives him power. He's a bully who uses his religiosity to justify, at least to himself, his financial dealings with the Middlemarch populace. "To point out other people’s errors was a duty that Mr. Bulstrode rarely shrank from.” His religious pomposity and hypocrisy cut too close to current reality. Be gone, you evil toad. Let's get back to the Brooks, please.
Bulstrode kind of reminded me of the banker Mr. Potter from It’s a Wonderful Life! Seems like a super evil guy haha
Yes!! Bulstrode felt just plainly evil to me — and I loved a lot of the language associated with him: "the banker was evidently a ruler," and "It was a principle with Mr Bulstrode to gain as much power as possible, that he might use it for the glory of God." but we know it's not really for the glory of god; it's for his own benefit and his own glory; to keep up appearances he has to "adjust his motives" (a phrase that had me laughing out loud).
He's a bit of a vampire isn't he? The novel uses the phrase: "he must have a sort of vampire's feast in the sense of mastery" and I'm really hanging onto that. Vampires are takers who suck others dry; dangerous language for a banker who keeps others' money for them and desires ever-growing power...
Oh! And on this note. I noticed at the end of chapter 16, "banking" language around Rosamond's attention toward Lydgate:
"Rosamond had *registered* every look and word, and *estimated* them as the opening incidents of a preconceived romance -- incidents which gather *value* from the foreseen development and climax."
Hah! Yes. Calculating aptly describes her character so far.
Wow! You have a great eye! I missed all of the banking language used.
I was interested in how he also seems to need to maintain strict self-control with his food “regimen”. It will be interesting to see if that becomes something more than a passing comment.
Ooooh. This is an excellent observation.
Yes! I'm going to have that image now whenever Bulstrode appears on the page.
The parallels between Dorothea and Rosamund are so well done, both convince themselves they've fallen in love, but it's an ideal they're chasing rather than a person.
So smart! I didn’t make the connection, but yes — they’re both looking to escape their current circumstances. Dorothea wants more scope for her ideals and energy, and Rosamund wants to escape her middle class connections and move up socially.
You're so right! They're both chasing ideals. That is so good.
Yes! I've been pondering the strange nature of Dorothea's desire/decision to marry Casaubon. She believes she's acting selflessly in dedicating all her powers to something "higher" but she's totally glossing over Casaubon as a person who might want to be seen and known. Weirdly enough, her need to bend everything to the service of a greater good has a lot of selfishness to it imo. Rosamond is at least more straightforward about her self-centeredness lol.
I agree wholeheartedly with your feelings towards the illustrious banker, Bulstrode. Although I do note that he clearly is not a complete master of all, as the opening sentence in Ch. 14 makes clear:
Mr. Bulstrode's consultation with Harriet seemed to have had the effect desired by Mr. Vincy, for early the next morning a letter came which Fred could carry to Mr. Featherstone as the required testimony.
Ah right, Harriet. She must indeed have some sway. Looking forward to seeing more of her.
Oh. Very good. I wonder if that'll be some pressure or tension roiling under the surface: Bulstrode seems to *want* to be master of all...will he be successful?
Thanks for keeping us moving along. I’m enjoying the slow reading experience and am using all formats: audio, e-book and real book. I’m enjoying having Eliot’s voice in my head. But that long chapter (or chapters) on medical philosophy? The only reward out of that was the spicy detail on the French actress. The Vincy family does seem soap opera-like. The audio says we are 20% complete so that’s progress!
That bit on medical practice was looong. If I wasn't holding myself accountable to this process, I'd have skipped ahead. Worth it for the big reveal? I guess, but still would have been happy to get there sooner.
Ooh, 20%. Good to know! And 100% agree with you re. the medical philosophy sections. I loved the actress character and I would have loved to have just stayed there.
Now that's a major win for the audiobook: a percentage tracker!! I just know, in my paperback, how the weight shifts in my hands as we chug along through sections. Hahaha.
I’m curious what people are thinking about the narrator! I was kind of gobsmacked (in a good way) in Chapter 10, when they insert themselves after pages and pages of characters roasting Casaubon (lol) to remind us to question what we’re hearing/who we’re hearing it from.
But then, in this section, the narrator themself ALSO became a person who I’m questioning — why are they choosing to share some things and not others? And I’m also tracking WHEN they reveal new information to us. When we first meet the Vincys, there’s a line to the effect of “everyone who’s anyone in Middlemarch knows the Vincys” — but we’re almost 100 pages in and just meeting them for the first time!
Also, that scene between Fred and Mary felt straight out of a Nora Ephron movie! The witty banter!!! Overall, I’m really enjoying this — it often feels like hearing someone give really good and lengthy gossip (maybe especially because the narrator feels a little sassy!)
Yes! I'm curious to hear more from everyone on the narrator. I'm feeling TRUST ISSUES.
Before I felt the narrator was moving the characters about like chess pieces. Now I'm wondering if it's we the readers that are being manipulated by the narrator. That whole bit about Lydgate and the murdering actress seems so out of left field. Before that he had seemed like an innocent idealist.
Interesting!!! I love this reading.
The murdering actress seems to be signaling something much larger (and more dangerous) about how people perform for each other — and can make things that are not true seem to be so with ease.
And, as she's Lydgate's first love, and Rosamond seems bent on being his second, I can't help but see the parallels between them. Like an actress, Rosamond is keenly aware of being seen and perceived by others. She's always performing, and like you said, always calculating...
Oooh, that’s good!
Oooh good point! There's so much about how Rosamond is always performing! I think it even says she doesn't quite know she's performing her own personality at one point.
Oh, that's a fun wrinkle. Does Rosamon *know* she's an actress? Like, we know she's aware of being perceived...does that mean she's performative? Does it mean she thinks of herself as performative? Fantastic, provocative questions!
The narrator is puzzling to me as well! Especially with all the information on Lydgate. Why is it so key to jump in and give us his whole history? I think there's even a mention that it's important for us to know so we judge him on the whole of his character or something along those lines. Why don't we get these asides for all other characters? Who is this sneaky narrator?
I think it might be because no one is going to ask Lydgate about himself and the narrator clearly wants his story told. The other characters know each other if not from childhood and over generations, and/or married into each other’s families that any one of them could give their opinions, character analysis and backstories. Part why Rosamond wants to marry a stranger?
The narrator I think is inserting herself in order to provide a broader view of characters plus the context of Middlemarch in an era of change - medically, socially, politically. Things are being shook up but only the narrator (so far) has the “big picture”.
Good point!
I'm lowkey rooting for Fred and Mary, I hope he grows a spine and wins her love. As for the narrator, whenever there is a huge cast of character I always find myself wondering who is the writer identifying with? Are there any self-portraits? Does Eliot have favorites, and are these favorites showing despite her trying to be objective?
Oooooh. Great questions. I've kind of wondered if the narrator even likes Dorothea.
Oh so many thoughts on the narrator! I looked up Fielding and thought it was interesting that she’s putting herself in conversation with him but claims to have a smaller web of characters and interactions to analyze. Wiki says Fielding is known for comedy, satire, and writing Tom Jones, which had a cast of characters from all strata of society illustrating the full gamut of moral characters.
I think she has to tell us about Lydgate because as (I think?) the only outsider no other characters know enough about him to shine a light on his character or past misadventures like they do for everyone else.
In terms of trustworthiness, it can also be tricky to parse out when she’s being a little sarcastic/humorous and when she’s being serious. (Overall I don’t read this narrator as super-serious.) I do think she’s toying with us a bit, leading us to think a certain way about Casaubon and then challenging our conclusions, leading us to think one way about Lydgate and then whisking back the curtain to reveal a whole other side to him. But not in a sense that makes me feel the ultimate takeaways are (or at least in the end will be) suspect. I think she’s using the misdirection to reveal certain truths about humanity (ours and the characters’).
As I write, it feels related to the preoccupation with science and experimentation throughout the book. Given these facts, reach those conclusions, now examine if the conclusions (and facts, for that matter) are trustworthy.
I love what you said about how hard it is to tell when she's being sarcastic and when she's being serious. I've had a few moments where I think I've potentially "over-read" a scene, only to go back and realize it was meant to be funny. (Last week, this happened with the very literal conversation about fishing that I thought was deeply metaphorical haha.)
I agree with your comments about the narrator - definitely toying with us. It’s fascinating!
I am so enjoying this slow read - the humor is really evident to me this time and I love seeing other readers' ideas and interpretations here. I thought the first paragraphs of Chapter 11 were a bit of a counterpoint to/in conversation with the opening lines of Pride & Prejudice about a man in possession of a good fortune being in want of a wife.
There's a line in the beginning pages of Chapter 11, "Destiny stands by sarcastic with our dramatis personae folded in her hand" - could this be the narrator describing herself?
The big theme that keeps arising for me is inconsistency - in what each member of the "couples" want or expect from each other; in how Bulstrode's morals and business practices (don't) align; in Fred and Mary's views of work, responsibility, and love; and in the ideas of established Middlemarchers versus those who are new to the town. I'm going to continue watching for this theme in the next section.
I love this idea of tracking inconsistency as a theme in the novel. That feels spot on!
Middlemarch is such a gossip factory! So far, I think Mary might be my favorite character because she doesn't want to hear about the Featherstone scandal or participate in spreading rumors. Rosamond seems a bit shallow (and a little mean to Fred), but it doesn't seem to stand out in Middlemarch. It's pretty clear that she is going to go after Lydgate because he's new to society and comes from a good family.
Lydgate is definitely more eloquent in speech than Fred. I can't tell who is more cruel, Featherstone or Bulstrode. They are both pretty awful, especially how Featherstone seem to toy with Fred's emotions in Chapter 14. I can't tell, yet, if anything will happen between Fred and Mary. There does seem to be a bit of flirting, but Mary doesn't seem like she's taking Fred seriously as a suitor. Either way, I'm rooting more for Lydgate and Rosamond, even if Lydgate claims he won't be getting married any time soon!
Mary is my favorite from these chapters too, but I'm also gonna put in a good word for Rosamund, she's a bit shallow for sure, but she's so young! More importantly, why does she want a husband with aristocratic status? She comes from a family of lower class parvenus and while her brother lazies about she's scheming to get ahead in life, something that she couldn't have achieved 50 years prior but times are a-changing and Rosamund is on top of things. It makes her look smarter than Fred, doesn't it?
Excellent point! I forget how young these characters are, and especially with the women, I forget how strategic they must be in order to secure their futures. Rosamond is definitely more active than Fred!
Ooh! My favorite quote from this section.
"Our vanities differ as our noses do: all conceit is not the same conceit, but varies in correspondence with the minutiae of mental make in which one of us differs from another."
I love the image of us all wearing our vanities on our faces like our noses!
I like this one too!
This was my favorite quote from this section also.
Other than the quote Adrian called out, I also underlined this one: "When a conversation has taken a wrong turn for us, we only get farther and farther into the swamp of awkwardness."
Nowadays we'd say sticking our foot in our mouth, but that phrase "swamp of awkwardness" seems perfect. I'm rooting for Fred. I hope he can give up gambling!
Yes! That was a great line I underlined as well.
I was absolutely gagged when I ran into this line: "To be born the son of a Middlemarch manufacturer and inevitable heir to nothing in particular while such men as Mainwaring and Vyan -- certainly life was a poor business when a spirited young fellow with a good appetite for the best of everything had so poor an outlook." I was like, 'What the what?! That's 'How Soon is Now?' Sure, enough: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_Soon_Is_Now%3F
Maybe because of that, Fred, Rosamund, and Mary became my favorite characters so far. I think Rosamund is so clever and I love how she plots and schemes, but is pretty and femme enough to sort of get away with it (certainly by men, but also by Mary and her mother). Fred reminds me of who I would have been head over heels for at 20. Sensitive, reckless when drunk, dreams already frustrated lol. I was like, 'We must be in Wicker Park again.' Mary is wonderful to read. I love how funny and wry and real she is. I'm rooting for her.
Man, though, I will say I'm reading DESPITE this narrator. I find the narrator's heavy hand so overbearing and even dull. Chapters 15 and 16 (Lydegate's history) and so forth were a SLOG for me to get through. The medical history and trying to professionalize the intellectual inquiry felt like those sections on biological facts about whales in Moby Dick. I'm sure someone has written a dissertation about it, and I'm positive I'm missing something, but it was a chore to get through. I can imagine how someone who didn't have an external pressure to finish might just give up then and there. It kind of goes against everything we're taught in creative writing school, as well. LOTS of telling (thanks for pointing that out, Haley).
I'm still game for continuing because I'm genuinely curious about where these characters will end up. I just know that I'll have to read against my tastes when the narrator comes back on the page to get there.
Thanks for sharing, everyone!
Oh wow, thanks for the Smiths reference. I had totally missed that.
I also now know what I’ll be listening to at work today!
I also had the feeling that I must be missing something very important/clever/intelligent in those bits. I was listening to an audiobook in that section, and I think that helped me get through it a little bit as sometimes those long slogging passages are easier to listen to for me. My mind wanders less than when I'm try to read it.
I just did a slow read of Middlemarch with a book club last year and one of the people in it was a historian of the era and provided some very helpful info. At this point is when medicine as a field is entering it's more scientific and less folksy/potions era. Eliot was fascinated with this personally and i think is partly why it fills so many pages. Lydgate believes in this new more scientific medicine and represents change coming to town, (also more general technological change, the advent of trains, etc) which becomes a contrast with the old school doctors and old guard that have long existed in Middlemarch. Also of note is Eliot published this in the early 1870s, but it takes place in 1829-1830, the book leads up to the first major cholera epidemic in Britain, the full consequences of which everyone in the 1870s reading this would have been aware of, but the characters of the book do not know yet. It is occasionally mentioned, subtly, towards the end. I wouldn't have known any of this if this one guy wasn't in my book club, so passing it along! All that said, the medical stuff is the most difficult section by a long shot! So if you've made it this far the rest of the book is a real pleasure.
Thanks for this. I wondered why Eliot would place this book in the 1820s and thought there must be a reason which colors the plot.
This is fantastic context! Thank you!!
So funny. I love the narrator. Her commentary is what makes this book so funny. At this point in the book, with the possible exception of Lydgate, the characters don’t seem very engaging.
Jaw dropped at the Smith's reference. Holy guacamole.
Amazing catch with those lyrics!
I’m still slogging through. I stopped mid chapter 15 and read this post which encouraged me to finish to get to the juicy actress tidbit. I do not like the narrator’s portions, to me the language is more presumptuous & difficult to understand than the other sections.
I think you share that feeling with many readers!! The narrator is almost like...the least interesting character in our cast. I find myself thinking of them as the loudest voice in the room (and one I'm wanting to turn down so I can turn up the volume on people like Rosamond and Mary!)
I love this discussion about the narrative voice doing so much telling - I agree, and I think it goes off the rails in that long description of Lydgate and his ideas about medical practice - the first time I read Middlemarch, I almost stopped reading at this point. I didn’t even remember the detail about the actress, and while it’s a welcome infusion of weirdness (and a sly way to undercut the rest of it), it also has the feel of gossip being relayed - which maybe is the point.
Lydgate provides an outside perspective on Middlemarch, but the in-the-know narrator is also judging him as he’ll be judged (and consumed) by everyone else. And I wonder what other readers here think of him - I’ll state flatly that I don’t like him or, more accurately, don’t enjoy his lack of self-awareness.
For those slogging for the first time, it does get better once all the main players have been introduced (as they have been). It’s my understanding that Eliot brought together two different pieces of writing - a story about “Miss Brooke” and a longer draft outline about this provincial town. The transition seams still show in this section, especially with all that telling.
I compare the tedious Lydgate section with the way Mrs. Cadwallader was introduced - bargaining over a chicken with a servant who smiles at the woman’s sharp bargaining skills. We get plenty of wry editorial comment about what Mrs. Cadwallader thinks and feels, too, but the combination of showing and telling brings the character to life. Same is true for Mary Garth - another great character constrained by her circumstances - but not with the men IMHO, except as “types.”
By the way, Haley, your discussion of that favorite quote is beautiful.
Totally agree how the unveiling of the female characters feels more weaved in.
Thanks so much Martha!
I was just reading something earlier this week about how the first draft of Middlemarch had *no Dorothea!* It was all Lydgate's story — and eventually, Eliot decided to incorporate those two pieces together. I think we maybe have made it past the place where that "weaving together" was happening most overtly, and maybe now the characters and their stories will start to weave a little tighter?
I love this discussion about the narrative voice doing so much telling - I agree, and I think it goes off the rails in that long description of Lydgate and his ideas about medical practice - the first time I read Middlemarch, I almost stopped reading at this point. I didn’t even remember the detail about the actress, and while it’s a welcome infusion of weirdness (and a sly way to undercut the rest of it), it also has the feel of gossip being relayed - which maybe is the point.
Lydgate provides an outside perspective on Middlemarch, but the in-the-know narrator is also judging him as he’ll be judged (and consumed) by everyone else. And I wonder what other readers here think of him - I’ll state flatly that I don’t like him or, more accurately, don’t enjoy his lack of self-awareness.
For those slogging for the first time, it does get better once all the main players have been introduced (as they have been). It’s my understanding that Eliot brought together two different pieces of writing - a story about “Miss Brooke” and a longer draft outline about this provincial town. The transition seams still show in this section, especially with all that telling.
I compare the tedious Lydgate section with the way Mrs. Cadwallader was introduced - bargaining over a chicken with a servant who smiles at the woman’s sharp bargaining skills. We get plenty of wry editorial comment about what Mrs. Cadwallader thinks and feels, too, but the combination of showing and telling brings the character to life. Same is true for Mary Garth - another great character constrained by her circumstances - but not with the men IMHO, except as “types.”
By the way, Haley, your discussion of that favorite quote is beautiful.
I mostly agree with everyone saying that these chapters were a bit harder to get through, but I also found just enough rewarding pieces of writing, information or dialogue to make it worth it to me!
For me one of the central themes in these chapters was the difference between the country people and the town people (i.e. the Vincys). Surely the Vincys can’t be actually poor as a manufacturer’s family that also dabbles in politics, but both Fred and Rosamond worry about their marriage prospects because of their family’s (lack of) money and status. And towards the end of chapter 16 it’s implied that the country people look down on the Middlemarchers, so I’m very intrigued to see this dynamic unfold in the future.
My favorite part of this week’s reading was the conversation between Mary and Fred! The dialogue was so much fun to read even though the actual topic of their conversation was rather serious. Loved what Mary had to say and Fred was such a drama queen, talking about blowing his brains out. But does Mary actually love Fred or not?? I couldn’t tell definitively!
Lydgate’s backstory was very interesting! I also immediately thought of Casaubon because of the academic ambitions. I also think one of the biggest differences (apart from their chosen fields of study) is that Lydgate had that love affair with the actress whereas Casaubon has never been in love (I think we learn that in the chapters leading up to the marriage?). So I’m looking forward to seeing if Lydgate is going to follow into Casaubon’s footsteps marriage-wise and how his story with Rosamond is going to unfold. It was almost painful to read about their different expectations and opinions on the other (but I totally get both of their reasonings!).
One of the quotes that stuck for me this week was right at the end of chapter 16: „ (…) in being from morning till night her own standard of a perfect lady, having always an audience in her own consciousness“ maybe that just means she’s self-absorbed lol but it made me think of that Margaret Atwood quote about being your own voyeur as a woman.
Lastly, didn’t think I’d get a The Smiths ear worm (is that even a thing you say in English? My native language is German haha) from this book but here we are!
I also loved the conversation between Mary and Fred! It was so playful. He was being petulant and she was taking no shit. Even though Fred is a bit annoying, I'm so interested in this relationship - I think because in all the other romantic relationships we've seen the power dynamic is clearly in the favour of the man, whereas this seems to challenge that.
"but it made me think of that Margaret Atwood quote about being your own voyeur as a woman." That is amazing. I think you're onto something there — in the sense that Atwood is writing about how much women have to be aware of themselves and almost take on the male gaze *and* their own self-awareness as twin gazes, always on the self.
John Berger said: "Men look at women. Women watch themselves being looked at."
Thank you for your work in making the reading of this novel such a pleasure Hayley, and thanks to the group for being so interactive. I’m doing 5 Substack reads at the moment and this group has more interactions than my other reads!
My favourite quote of the week came from Mary who I really like as a character. Fred has just informed her that Mr Waule is in love with her and Mary replies:
“I am not aware of it. And to me it is one of the most odious things in a girl’s life, that there must always be some supposition of falling in love coming between her and any man who is kind to her, and to whom she is grateful. I should have thought that I, at least, might have been safe from all that. I have no ground for the nonsensical vanity of fancying everybody who comes near me is in love with me”.
Such a contrast to Rosamond:
“She judged of her own symptoms as those of awakening love, and she held it still more natural that Mr Lydgate should have fallen in love at first sight of her…..Rosamond was rather used to being fallen in love with”.
And I love the humour, my favourite laugh out loud moment this week:
“If you are not proud of your cellar, there is no thrill of satisfaction in seeing your guest hold up his wineglass to the light and look judicially”.
Happy reading everyone 😊
Finally got my copy
So I have a huge catching up to do😭😭
Wow so this week particularly the end of book one I felt like we zoomed out in scope, even with all the narrators talk of focusing on the specifics and individuals the scope of the novel has quickly widened and the characters and what they think of each other is becoming harder to keep track off.
I think there is definitely something going on about projection and mirrors.
With discussions of Lydgate and a stranger in town we are seeing the ways in which all characters project their own self into how they view each other. I particularly enjoyed the concept of Rosamond having already married him in her head as it shows how carried away we can get on fantasy with so little encouragement from the other person and their actual behaviour or personality. Are we interacting with others? Or are we interacting with figments of our own imagination we have created in the image of others?
Similarly I think Lydgate does this with women, we are told in the character study of chapter 15 that for all his learning and seeking of knowledge he has not turned that great big mind of his into expanding his idea of women and instead possesses more of a common or lay person's taste and prejudice in female companionship. I see in how he thinks of Rosamond that he is not seeing her as a person so much as an image, a reflection. A representation. An ideal?
I particularly loved this quote from the start of chapter 11:
p94"Plain women he regarded as he did the other severe facts of life, to be faced with philosophy and investigated by science"
I think the way he fools himself with regards to Rosamond will be important as after the story of his experience with the actress it says, he believes illusions are at an end for him, and that he will approach women with a more scientific view yet I think we already see that this is not happening in how he approaches Rosamond, in a way she already has him fooled by her image!
I think it interesting as well that Rosy & Mary's conversation happened in front of a mirror which features in the narration. Rosy discounts the importance of beauty in a way that only one possessed of it can do. On page 112 Rosamond and her reflection are described as two nymphs with "eyes of heavenly blue, deep enough to hold the most exquisite meanings an ingenius beholder could put into them, and deep enough to hide the meanings of the owner if these should happen to be less exquisite" Setting up the difference between what we see in others & what truly exists there.
I thought Fred and Mary were interesting mirrors for each other, both would prefer to live with or deal with the old miser Mr Featherstone than gain employment. Mary would rather live at stone court and be treated poorly than work as a teacher and Fred would rather lounge around and debase himself to the whims of the old man than work hard for his money. I wasn't entirely clear on Mary's feelings for Fred but I suspect her sole objection to marrying him is based on the fact that neither of them have any money. I wasn't sure what the stuff about the bill held in security was, for Fred's gambling debt. Am I right in reading it that he owes money to Mary's father? Which is not a great look Fred if you hope to marry the girl!
I did find Fred at times insufferable, particularly when he was introduced as the spoiled child of Mrs Vincy and the insufferable brother of Rosy. But I found his optimism and faith around life and money endearing and his relationship with Mary intriguing and delightful.
I particularly loved Mary for saying "I think any hardship is better than pretending to do what one is paid for, and never really doing it" and Fred when he said, "Well, I am not fit to be a poor man. I should not have made a bad fellow if I had been rich."
I find myself relating to all the characters in some capacity and enjoying their complexity. I even enjoyed the conversation between Mr Vincy and Mr Bulstrode, as I felt it interesting that two adult men could discuss their families and doing what is right and openly be disagreeing whilst trying to get along as they all have to co-exist.
Love this -"are we interacting with figments of our own imagination we have created in the image of others?"
I've noted the repetition of mirrors and images too, and I loved the use of the mirror in the scene with Mary and Rosamond. That was so cinematic.
To be fair to Mary, her other option is to be a governess, which was an extremely difficult position - living in someone else's household, neither part of the family nor exactly one of the servants (which could be very lonely), and vulnerable to various abuses and mistreatment. Living with and near family was likely preferable -- and safer.
Extremely true! And I probably didn't think of it to that level beyond my initial reaction of damn Mary stop telling fred to work when you don't want to either! haha But also to be fair to her, her desire for him to work is probably rooted in the fact that it is literally the only pathway beyond inheritance in which he would have money for a marriage.
I think Mary *is* working. This sort of companion arrangement for elderly family members was quite common (think Jo and Aunt March in Little Women). Like Jo, she receives a stipend or wage. And she certainly earns that money: she puts up with a lot from Featherstone, and is basically on call all day.
Ok this is the last time I'm responding to this, because I think you are just misinterpreting what I am saying. I agree Mary has to put up with a lot. I was making a point that they are both choosing their hard. i.e. choosing to put up with Mr Featherstone rather than do something else, as I said in my original comment. I literally have no problem with Mary's choice, in fact I relate to it, as a similar choice and arrangement is present in my own life.
I literally say in my comment "Mary would rather live at stone court and be treated poorly..." acknowledging the difficulty. and I quote her talking about her own hardship. I never once said she has an easy life, and I think there are many valuable things one can do in life beyond paid employment. So any negative view towards Mary that you think exists here is something you are placing there.... Just a mirror, like the text. Not working for money is not a negative thing in my opinion.
Hi :) I don't think there's misinterpretation happening here — I think there's discussion of what drives Mary's and Fred's decisions to remain in Featherstone's orbit, tinged with the fact that we all bring ourselves (and our differences in experience and lifestyle) to reading classics.
Katya brings up an excellent point (as I read it) that Mary's options are quite limited: whether she stays with Featherstone or becomes a governess, she has no life of leisure ahead.
And Percy, you bring up an excellent point too — we're not crystal clear on all of Mary's reasons for rejecting Fred (yet??) but it seems to have something to do with money and their class standing.
There's anxiety, as both of you point out, for Mary. Whether she's paid or not, whether she's married or not, her life isn't getting "easier" in any way that seems to feel meaningful to her (at this point in the story, at least).
It seems we're negotiating a provocative question about what her life may have felt like (something that, so far, Eliot is pretty good at teasing out on a smaller scale, and I'm eager to see how she'll play out in the hundreds of pages we have left).
Both of you have led me to wonder more deeply: what does "ease" mean for women during the Victorian era? What does "ease" mean for someone like Mary, in this time period? And, by contrast, what does "ease" mean for Fred — whose relationship to Featherstone and potential for a kind of social ruin (as a gambler!) present different challenges.
a favorite line from this week: "If you are not proud of your cellar, there is no thrill of satisfaction in seeing your guest hold up his wine-glass to the light and look judicial."
I love all the scientific interludes! And she cites Mammon (which I first heard of via Slate Star Codex), so that's fun, like seeing an old friend unexpectedly at an incongruous party in another country from where you first met.
and Mr. Farebrother was wonderfully described - "...the brilliancy was all in his quick gray eyes. He came like a pleasant change in the light"